Author Topic: Tiger Force  (Read 7993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2041
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Tiger Force
« on: May 29, 2010, 03:12:55 pm »
I was wondering if anyone had some good sources on the Tiger Force scheme planned for 1945?  Were the war to have continued past August of 1945, would the Riger Force markings have been regular British roundels or would they have been SEA roundels?



Thanks,

Logan

Offline Taiidantomcat

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 04:45:39 pm »
I have only seen one profile of the Tiger Force and it pretty much looks just like that picture. Same Roundels as the picture as well...
"Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gaultier

"My model is right! It's the real world that's wrong!" -global warming scientist

An armor guy, who builds airplanes almost exclusively, that he converts to space fighters-- all while admiring ship models.

Offline Logan Hartke

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2041
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 05:44:41 pm »
I've seen at least a half dozen profiles of the Tiger Force scheme (just look at the Lancasters and Lincolns in Wings Palette, but they only show the aircraft as they were painted and as they served post war.  I don't know what they would have been painted as had the war gone on longer, which is kind of what I was wondering.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline philp

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 5666
    • My photos on picasaweb
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 05:47:41 pm »
Also all that I have ever seen are with the full color roundels.



However, would be interesting to see one with SEAC roundels.
Phil Peterson

Vote for the Whiffies

Offline NARSES2

  • Nick was always on his mind - just ask the Pet Shop Boys
  • Global Moderator
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 35514
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 02:05:11 am »
I've seen at least a half dozen profiles of the Tiger Force scheme (just look at the Lancasters and Lincolns in Wings Palette, but they only show the aircraft as they were painted and as they served post war.  I don't know what they would have been painted as had the war gone on longer, which is kind of what I was wondering.

Cheers,

Logan

Thats all I've ever seen as well Logan. I do have some Tiger force aircraft planned and they will have SEAC roundels with black codes. I've know evidence whatsoever to back that up with but given the Allies tendancy to avoid red in their markings in this theatre it seems logical. Like you I would be extremely grateful to anyone who has some actual information on what was actually planned for in theatre use.
Decals my @r$e!

Offline PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 28252
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 02:10:00 am »
I assumed the SEAC roundels for my Twin Spitfire too, which would have been escorts for the huge fleet of Tiger Force Vickers Windsors of course.  ;D

Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Cliffy B

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 1247
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 08:57:46 am »
That twin Spitfire is awesome!!!  :wub:

Is there a build thread anywhere?  I must see more photos!
"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."
-Tom Clancy

"Radial's Growl, Inline's Purr, Jet's Suck!"
-Anonymous

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."
-Anonymous

Offline PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 28252
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2010, 06:15:27 pm »
Cliffy,

There's one more photo in my Gallery but I don't think I've described the build before.

When it's at displays I sometimes have a description with it that's a basckstory and build description all in one. I've pasted it below.

Supermarine Spitfire F32 TP781
34 Sqdn. FEAF Palam, India 1946.
   
Developed by Supermarine specifically for escorting the Tiger Force Lancasters on their long range attacks on the Japanese home islands, the Spitfire F32 followed the classical 'twinning' formula in order to give much greater range and endurance to the FEAF escort squadrons. Basically two Spitfire F22s joined by a new wing centre section and tailplane, the F32 carried a crew of two, both of whom could take full control of the aircraft.

Powered by two RR Griffon 85s fitted with contra-props, the F32 carried a formidable armament of 6 x 20mm cannon, four of which were fitted in the almost standard F22 outer wings, with the remaining two sharing the wing center section with the huge fuel tank that gave the F32 it's remarkable long range performance.  Post war, all the F32s were fitted with the larger F24 type fin and rudder , but the great majority of the aircraft that  saw service in the Far East had the smaller Mk XIV type tail assembly. 

The thirty odd aircraft in the first production batch, of which TP781 was one, were re-allocated from a cancelled order for MkXVIIIs, and actually used some of the fuselage sub-assemblies of the cancelled order. Most of these aircraft were allocated to the Tiger Force, as well as another 45 aircraft from later, new-build production. The  F32s proved ideal for their task, packing a very heavy punch and usually downing any of the opposing Japanese fighters with one burst of the six Hispanos. The ability to carry two pilots, one of whom usually flew the long legs of the escort flights, and the other flying any combat portions of the mission, more than offset the heavier wing loading of the twin fuselage Spitfire when pitted against the nimble Japanese aircraft.

34 Sqdn converted to the twin Spitfire from its previous Thunderbolts at Palam, near Delhi in June '45, and flew on all the Tiger Force raids. Subsequently the squadron was forward based on some of the many small strips on the Chinese mainland, where it supported the invasion forces during the landings on Honshu and Hokkaido. The  'Twin Spits', as they became popularly known, did not take kindly to the semi-tactical role, and were soon rotated back to India, being replaced in this task by the more robust US Thunderbolts and Corsairs. 34 Sqdn itself reverted to a different role, being re-equipped with another Spifire variant, the PR19, while the F32s went back to the UK to fly with the RAuxAF for a number of years.

                                                                                                                                 

Model built from two Aeroclub vacform Spitfire MkXVIII conversion fuselages, with outer wings from an Airkit Mk 21. The center wing section came from an Airfix MkV, with added plasticard and Airkit cannons. The cockpit interior and various accesory parts were donated by a brace of Heller MkXVIs. Mucho White Stuff filled in the gaps, of which there were many, and inspiration for the whole thing came from my old mate Bob Owen, late ofTrent Plastic Modellers, which is fairly amazing as he is a died-in-the-wool Luftwaffe nut!

No, I have no intention of working out how much it cost, and I don't know what I'm going to do with all the bits left over, but watch this space next year...........
                  
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Cliffy B

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 1247
  • Its ZOTT!!!
    • My Artwork
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2010, 07:27:15 pm »
now its even more awesome!  Thanks for sharing man  :thumbsup:
"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."
-Tom Clancy

"Radial's Growl, Inline's Purr, Jet's Suck!"
-Anonymous

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."
-Anonymous

Offline The Wooksta!

  • Resident Soup Dragon
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
  • Would you risk it for a chocolate biscuit?
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 01:18:42 am »
Tiger Force would have had two sets of roundels!  Apparently, it was to have been based on Iwo Jima, but the island couldn't accommodate all of Tiger Force alongside the Americans, so half would have been based in India.  Those flying from India would have had SEAC roundels and quite likely the recognition stripes too (Roundel Blue).  Those flying from Iwo Jima would have had British Pacific Fleet markings to assist the US air gunners in telling them that we were on their side and to avoid their tendency to shoot at their own allies.

The 627 Sqn Mosquito B35 pathfinders would have been in overall Aluminium dope too, not White and Night.
"It's basically a cure... for not being an axe-wielding homicidal maniac... the potential market's enormous!"

"Now then, Butch Harry. Tell us about Fulham."

The Plan - a Blog
www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,34762.0.html

Offline kitbasher

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3925
  • bashes kits
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 01:37:59 am »
I'm with The Wooksta on this one.  There's a similar thread on the forum concerning Tiger Force (will try and find a link) and I for one have never been able to imagine TF aircraft in SEAC markings.  No evidence to support the hunch, which is based solely on the observation that British Pacific Fleet aircraft wore markings more like stars and bars than the IndianOcean Fleet (which were essentially SEAC but with 'real' (rather than 'Indian') white in roundelsand fin flashes.  Also think about the New Zealand roundel bars.  Finally, there are photos of an 'Aries' Lancastrian with blue and white roundels and white flanking bars (to the fuselage roundels at least). 
OK all this is conjecture, but with the Americans leading the Pacific campaign I think the greatest possible level of commonality in national markings as an aid to aircraft recognition would have led to the RAF using British Pacific Fleet-style roundels and fin flashes.  Perhaps at that stage of the war the familiar SEAC markings may have been dropped in the name of even greater commonality?  Who knows.  Would be interesting to learn the truth, though.
 ;D ;D
IPMS What If? & Secret Project SIG member.
On the go: Arrow, Beaumaris, Battle, Bronco GA.1, Buzzard II, CASA 2.217, Corsair GR.1, EE P12, Hawker P1067, Hellcat IV, Ice Cream Tank, JP T4, Jumo MiG-15, Macchi MC.205, Meteor F.8R, Phantom FG1, Sea Hawk T7, Spitfire XII, Ta154, Val, Wellington.

Offline The Wooksta!

  • Resident Soup Dragon
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
  • Would you risk it for a chocolate biscuit?
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 02:06:27 am »
I got my info from Tony O'Toole, who I know does a fair bit of research, so I'd say it was on the level.  I did a Tiger Force Lanc some years back.  Looked good in SEAC markings.
"It's basically a cure... for not being an axe-wielding homicidal maniac... the potential market's enormous!"

"Now then, Butch Harry. Tell us about Fulham."

The Plan - a Blog
www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,34762.0.html

Offline NARSES2

  • Nick was always on his mind - just ask the Pet Shop Boys
  • Global Moderator
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 35514
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 02:30:01 am »
Tiger Force would have had two sets of roundels!  Apparently, it was to have been based on Iwo Jima, but the island couldn't accommodate all of Tiger Force alongside the Americans, so half would have been based in India.  Those flying from India would have had SEAC roundels and quite likely the recognition stripes too (Roundel Blue).  Those flying from Iwo Jima would have had British Pacific Fleet markings to assist the US air gunners in telling them that we were on their side and to avoid their tendency to shoot at their own allies.

The 627 Sqn Mosquito B35 pathfinders would have been in overall Aluminium dope too, not White and Night.

I think thats a very good suposition for anything based in the Pacific Lee. However my Mossie B35 will still be in White and Night with BPF roundels  ;D
Decals my @r$e!

Offline Geoff

  • Knows a probation officer in Hull
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4628
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 04:53:57 am »
Perhaps even adding "bars" to the SEAC roundels? Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!

Offline NARSES2

  • Nick was always on his mind - just ask the Pet Shop Boys
  • Global Moderator
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 35514
Re: Tiger Force
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2010, 04:36:00 am »
Perhaps even adding "bars" to the SEAC roundels? Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!!

You could do that and make the SEAC roundels "normal" size rather then the reduced size they were.

And that's another question. Why were SEAC roundels small ? I've even had the question printed in some of the mags and received no answer  :banghead:
Decals my @r$e!