Author Topic: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used  (Read 45646 times)

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Offline Logan Hartke

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The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« on: October 07, 2009, 03:16:06 pm »
Okay, so you the new defense minister of a reasonably wealthy country that once had a very large and very well-equipped military.  Organized and trained by some of the worst of Hitler's ex-cronies your country's military leadership ran the country in a brutal but effective junta and started a major build-up post-WWII with the latest in military hardware.  In the 1960s, the junta launched a devastating war of aggression against its neighbors, aimed at securing more resources and expanding its borders.  Your country's leadership waited until the US was thoroughly distracted by Vietnam and the USSR was dealing with Czechoslovakia and your military lashed out, quickly gaining ground winning a string of military victories, all in the name of nationalism.  It wasn't long, however, before all arms imports were embargoed to your country and soon, even non-military supplies as well.  The offensive ground to a halt and your neighbors, spurred on by new arms purchases of their own, quickly pushed your army back.  In a matter of months, your country's army had inflicted grievous losses on the enemy but were pushed back to a last-stand at the capital where the last vestiges of a once-proud army were wiped out



The victims of your countries aggression soon returned the favor.  The occupation became brutal to the point where the UN intervened to prevent further abuses.  A multi-national UN force was soon created to occupy your country and protect your countrymen from your vengeful neighbors.  As the aggressor, the terms visited upon your country following the war and signed off on by a puppet government were not kind.  No air force or navy of any kind was to be allowed for the next 40 years.  Only a coast guard and gendarmerie would be allowed until January 1, 2010 and they were allowed to have no aircraft, no tanks, and no missiles, rockets, or artillery with a range greater than 10km.  They were also not allowed any armed helicopters, submarines, or ships over 1000 tonnes (empty).  Finally, your nation's military would be forced to abide by certain other restrictions after 2010.  In what was called the 40/20 Rule, your air force would not be allowed to operate any aircraft TYPE that had its first flight after January 1, 1970 (the date the treaty went into action) or that was still in production on January 1, 1990.  In other words, no aircraft types that were first flown less than 40 years ago or were still being built 20 years ago.  These dates would only roll forward every 10 years, so--for example--the F-14 would not be an option until 2020.  Likewise. your army could operate no armored vehicle types produced within the past 20 years, and your navy could not operate any ship launched within the past 30 years.  Finally, no member of your armed forces prior to 1970 would be allowed to ever serve your nation's military forces again.

The UN, concerned with these terms and wary of the result of the treaty of Versailles exactly 50 years early, did its best to help encourage a democratic government, rebuild your shattered infrastructure, and setup a UN-organized defense force for your country until 2010.  In return, your country established positive relations with much of the world and your gendarmes became renowned around the world for their professionalism on UN missions around the world.  The UN imported security into your country and you exported peace.



Unfortunately, the goodwill shown by much of world to your country in the four decades after the devastating war your nation started only poured salt into the wounds of your neighbors.  Unrestricted, they constantly built up their armed forces, waiting for the day the UN would leave your nation and they could exact their revenge.  Their rhetoric of revenge and retribution made them political pariahs, but their money and spending habits made them arms expo gold mines.  The world may have condemned their blood lust, but that didn't mean they wouldn't sell them all the latest and greatest arms money could buy.

___________________________________________


So, January 1, 2010 is right around the corner and on that date you can start rebuilding your armed forces.  With the rules below, what do your armed forces look like?

Rules from 1970 Treaty:

1. No aircraft or helicopter types that first flew after January 1st, 1970
2. No aircraft or helicopter types that were still in serial production anytime after January 1st, 1990*
3. No combat aircraft with an empty weight greater than 50,000 kg
4. No armored vehicle types that were still in serial production anytime after January 1st, 1990*
5. No ships launched after January 1st, 1980

Alternate timeline rules:

6. You can upgrade as much as you like
7. Major airframe/chassis/hull modifications (new wings/hull/engines) limited to actual or proposed upgrades
8. Number of aircraft/vehicles/ships limited to actual numbers built
9. Assume equipment has been stored since it was decommissioned or that it will be decommission and transferred to your country on January 1st, 2010

* - We'll be lenient here.  No aircraft or vehicles with major production after January 1st, 1990.  Limited production (S-64 Skycrane, for example) or aircraft assembled from existing parts after 1990 won't disqualify the type, but don't assume you'll get the ones built after that date--you won't.




So, here’s a few examples of things that won’t work and why:

F-14 Tomcats (Rule #1)
C-130 Hercules (Rule #2)
Tu-95 (Rules #2 & #3)
M270 MLRS (Rule #4)
USS Stark (Rule #5)
Avro Vulcan w/ F119s (Rule #7)
Short Belfast (Rule #8)





I’ve seen a lot of the “make your own air force” but they always have the latest, greatest, top of the line stuff.  Here’s something that should honor those designs that were really good, but often get overlooked.

So, what would you equip your military with?  Post as few or as many examples as you like.  Do a whole military, just an air force, or just a single type that you think would really shine.


Cheers,

Logan
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:06:23 pm by Logan Hartke »

Offline chrisonord

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 03:41:26 pm »
Hello Logan,
When I read the heading of your thread, I got this strange but amusing idea in my head. "Geriatric air force....hmmm?
I got this vision of F-14's and some F-4's, converted for wheelchair access, their canopies made from highly magnifying glass, the radio's made that bit louder and have a say again button on the panel. The ejector seat/wheelchair would have a built in catheter and tablet dispenser.
The aircraft would be fitted with an airborne as well as ground version of parking sensors. The pilots would be of questionable  age, fitness, mental solvency, and have bad eating and social manners.
This wing of specialist pilots would be called.....
"THE JOLLY CODGERS"!!!
I will get my coat on my way out :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Offline The Rat

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 05:42:20 pm »
Your mention of the UN piqued my interest more than the fictitious nation. I've had a UN aircraft planned for a couple of years now, and this looks like a good time to kick-start that project.

EDIT: It would also fit into the used aircraft theme too.
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Offline batmancustoms

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 06:30:46 pm »
awesome!!!!!

To many idea head about to explode!!!!!!! :bow:
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 10:03:40 pm »
Would upgraded Skyhawks be permissable?  I'm thinking of a combination of the Kahu upgrade in systems combined with the re-engining that Singapore did.  I can see those as certainly part of a good airarm.  Beyond that, what could be done with, say, upgraded Hunters (at least in equipment fit, say the final F.58 equipment fit with the centerline rack that Singapore, ISTR, developed).  Beyond that, I'd have to give it further thought.
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Offline frinklemur

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 10:13:52 pm »
So many sub-questions to ask, like is this based on real world availability?  Would be hard to outfit a force with types no longer in service anywhere else, ie gone from the supply chain.   I guess I would try and kit my Airforce with Mig-21 Bizons and Mig-23 & 27s from Yemen and India as they are phased out from their respective countries, then upgrade them to the 9s, with Israeli and Russian avionics.  AA-12 Amraamski missles, and R73s, or Python 4s.    HAL HJT-16 Kirans for jet training and light strike, as India is also about to phase those.

Helicopters- woosh, is this even possible? Nearly all of the first turbine powered helicopters are still being built as evolutions, Ie  UH-1, Mi-8,  Mi-2
I guess try to snatch up all Westland Wessex / Turbine Choctaws out there.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 10:42:00 pm »
So many sub-questions to ask, like is this based on real world availability?

No.  As long as X number were built, feel free to use up to that amount.  As if the original user treated them kindly (but got good use out of them) then stored them away in hopes that you'd pick them up when you could.  So, in other words, you can't pick something like the F-111B and say "give me 500", but the Buccaneer is free game even though many have been lost or scrapped (as if the country that used them thought of you and kept them safe until you could consider them).

Helicopters- woosh, is this even possible? Nearly all of the first turbine powered helicopters are still being built as evolutions, Ie  UH-1, Mi-8,  Mi-2
I guess try to snatch up all Westland Wessex / Turbine Choctaws out there.

See, this is where it got fun for me.  The Wessex is the first one I thought of, but I think the Sea King should qualify since production closed just about on 1990 as far as I know.

A few other good ones are the Mi-6 and CH-54/S-64.  The best assault helicopter that I could think of that should qualify, however, would be the CH-46 Sea Knight.  A versatile and reliable trooper, its production line was shut down by 1990, too.



Again, it forced me to think outside of the box and remember the old stalwarts from the 60s and 70s that would still be useful today.

Cheers

Offline batmancustoms

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 11:01:10 pm »
woould love some Skyraiders , Phantoms , A 26 , etc
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Offline tahsin

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 12:57:50 am »
40 squadrons of Phantoms but would the World really like them ?


Offline Mossie

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 03:20:33 am »
Mirage III or 5 should work.  I'm sure that France would be happy to supply them & there were plenty about, so a modest air force should be possible.  Kfir & Cheetah are out, because of the time lines.

The venerable old Dak comes to mind, still flying all over the world.  Is the Basler BT-67 possible, more of an engine swap than any significant upgrade?

Armour wise, Centurion or T-64 would be a good option.  Again, plenty about.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 03:42:36 am by Mossie »
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Offline GeorgeC

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 03:34:16 am »
Well if the UN is flexible over production marks as well as types we could fly

VC10
Tristar
Nimrod MR2
Hercules C1 & 3
Puma HC1
Commando
Sea King
Gazelle

and by 2014 add in Tornado and Hawk.

Imagine having to fly and support that load of geriatrics, let alone fight any wars

 :banghead:

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 05:42:09 am »
Kfir & Cheetah are out, because of the time lines.

The venerable old Dak comes to mind, still flying all over the world.  Is the Basler BT-67 possible, more of an engine swap than any significant upgrade?

Armour wise, Centurion or T-64 would be a good option.  Again, plenty about.

Kfir and Cheetah are perfect.  What matters is the airframes.  If they were upgraded after 1990, that's fine, but all of them were produced before.  Those were two of the main ones I was thinking of when doing this.  The Basler is another one I was thinking of.  Why wouldn't it be ok?  It doesn't matter when the upgrade happened, as long as the type wasn't produced after 1990.

Centurion and T-64 are perfect for the vehicles.  Lots of great upgrades for both that would make them a tough nut for even Abrams and T-90s to crack.

Well if the UN is flexible over production marks as well as types we could fly

VC10
Tristar (Rule #1: first flew after 1/1/1970)
Nimrod MR2
Hercules C1 & 3 (Rule #2: the basic type/airframe was in production after 1990)
Puma HC1 (Rule #2)
Commando
Sea King
Gazelle (Rule #2)

and by 2014 add in Tornado and Hawk. (Actually, it's 2020 before they become available and Hawk not even then, since it's still in production.)

Imagine having to fly and support that load of geriatrics, let alone fight any wars

 :banghead:

Yeah, again, this kind of what got me started thinking about it.  Thinking about all the old US & UK types still out there.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 07:39:11 am »
Does this set of rules mean that any indigenous industry is out of question?

Like reverse engineering those type that fit the "timeframe" rules and later apply some radical modifications (a bit like what the PRC did with their J-6 and J-7)?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 08:14:08 am by dy031101 »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 08:52:54 am »
Does this set of rules mean that any indigenous industry is out of question?

Like reverse engineering those type that fit the "timeframe" rules and later apply some radical modifications (a bit like what the PRC did with their J-6 and J-7)?

Since the country is fictitious, yes, for all intensive purposes it rules out indigenous industry.  I'm fine with you saying that your fictitious nation will make spare widgets and handle the labor/assembly involved in any upgrade, but development work and initial construction would have to be done by real-world nations.  Be aware, however, that some types age better than others.  Some aircraft become real maintenance queens as they get older.

So, upgrades like new wings, new engines, etc. would need to have been at least proposed and you wouldn't get to use new-build examples.  The J-7 is definitely out because it was still in production after 1990 and I'm tempted to say the MiG-21 would be out because of it.  I'd say it's up to everyone else, but definitely no Chinese-built MiG-21 variants.  Likewise, I'm willing to say the MiG-19 and J-6 are okay, but definitely not on the Q-5 for the same production reasons.  I think the whole MiG-21, An-12, and Tu-16 lines should be taken out because they were still being upgraded and produced by China long after 1990.

I did the 1990 rule so everyone didn't just go out and pick boring C-130s, Super 7s, Jaguars, Hueys, Cobras, and Mi-17s.  We all know the greats that have been built for decades and decades, but what about the reliable oldies that lasted long after their parent companies had died out?


A-7
MiG-25
CH-46
Buccaneer
An-22
Sea King

There are some neat types out there that I think would still be very valuable today.

Cheers,

Logan
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 10:35:48 am by Logan Hartke »

Offline Mossie

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Re: The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 09:03:56 am »
Kfir and Cheetah are perfect.  What matters is the airframes.  If they were upgraded after 1990, that's fine, but all of them were produced before.  Those were two of the main ones I was thinking of when doing this.  The Basler is another one I was thinking of.  Why wouldn't it be ok?  It doesn't matter when the upgrade happened, as long as the type wasn't produced after 1990.

Centurion and T-64 are perfect for the vehicles.  Lots of great upgrades for both that would make them a tough nut for even Abrams and T-90s to crack.

Get you.  I'd read the asterisk comment & not quite understood.  The Cheetah should count as an upgraded aircraft, but I'm not sure about the Kfirs.  I believe the Kfirs were all built in Israel & didn't enter service until the mid 70's?  Some might have been upgraded Neshers, but I can't confirm this after a quick web search.
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