Author Topic: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion  (Read 8529 times)

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 05:58:48 pm »
The Fronco/Italian MILAS ASW weapon is an OTOMAT anti-ship missile body with a lightweight torpedo in place of the original warhead and radar set. It still has the inertial guidance system and datalink, so it could, in principal be steered towards a ship and drop it's torpedo.

The French MALAFON weapon used a short, light 21 inch diameter torpedo, although it didn't have much range, since it was a rocket-boost then glide weapon. No reason in principle why it couldn't be given more legs though.

The problem with all these ASW weapons is that the payload (even in MALAFON) is a lightweight ASW torpedo, much smaller than anti-ship torpedoes. The minimum size for the latter is generally considered to be 18" diameter and 1600+ lbs, which gives you a much larger missile, more akin to the big Russian AshMs, rather than weapons like Exocet.
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Offline rickshaw

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2009, 05:25:00 am »
Well, the Ikara and ASROC anti-submarine weapons are basically similar - a missile which drops a torpedo. I've always thought that such a combination of a sea-skimming missile and torpedo would be a neat way of defeating an Aegis-type missile defence system.

In concept perhaps.  In actual method, they are very different.  ASROC is basically a torpedo with a rocket attached and once the torpedo is dropped, the rocket motor is allowed to fall into the sea beside it.  This results in a bigger splash than is actually required and alerts the submarine that a torpedo has been delivered.  Ikara OTOH, dropped its torpedo and flew on, well past before splashing down.  The torpedo entered the water much more quietly and the submarine was not alerted to its presence.
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Offline Just call me Ray

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2009, 07:07:46 pm »
Oh, I should've clarified, I was probably thinking more along the lines of a WWII scenario. I've discussed modern homing torpedoes on other websites and the conclusion was reached that such a missile would be too fast for such a torpedo, though I suppose you could strap some Shikvals to a rocket motor, I guess.

I was thinking that a pulsejet might be slow and "expendable" enough, and it certainly was within a WWII tech level.
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Offline Sauragnmon

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2009, 12:14:06 am »
I gotta admit, the use of a missile/glider delivery package for an anti-shipping torpedo is rather interesting.

As to the thought of "it's too fast" there ARE ways to induce last minute drag and alter the aerodynamics of the torpedo or delivery package just prior to release - imagine if you will, a shielded-screw torpedo with a release-casing cover over the screw similar to the wood-shroud torpedoes to avoid a deep drop-dive in shallow harbours, but with a snake eye-style snap-out retarder fin to slow the torpedo immediately after release.  Similarly, if there was a shock-guard in the nose to shield it on water insertion, so it doesn't accidentally trigger the warhead, though that could equally be changed with a magnetic detonator or similar concept.

Considering the way naval ships have such an achilles heel for ADCAP torpedoes, I'm surprised somebody hasn't wrapped their head around the concept.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2009, 02:15:23 am »
I've never seen the link explicitly made, but the MALAFON weapon looks awfully like a some late-WWII German projects for air-to-surface, anti-ship-torpedo-carrying missiles. In those, the missile body split in half lengthways to release the torpedo, which was slowed down by a drogue 'chute.
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Offline Slerski

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2009, 07:24:50 am »
I apologize for resurrecting yet another old thread, but I couldn't see starting another whole topic for one little question.  What are these?



The image in question was cropped from a photo of an in-service F/A-18C in flight refueling over Afghanistan.  I'm asking about the little things on the TER mounted under the left wing.  Are those Small Diameter Bombs, or some other weapon I haven't heard of yet?

However, if we were over Afghanistan, it can be Lockheed-Martin SCALPEL (Small Contained-Area Laser Precision Energetic Load) weapons system.(for information look here => http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/SCALPEL/index.html).

But I've read that this F/A-18 was in training flight, so it's LGTR.
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Offline Jschmus

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2009, 03:45:27 pm »
Slerski, that is cool as s**t.  Back when I posted that, we casually discussed using the training round as a kinetic kill weapon, with no idea they were actually considering such a thing.
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Offline sequoiaranger

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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2009, 09:49:09 am »
>I gotta admit, the use of a missile/glider delivery package for an anti-shipping torpedo is rather interesting.<

The Germans did use a glider-launched torpedo, the Friedensengel, and I "incorporated" a similar idea into my "Fliegenfische" (Flying Fish) ordnance used on my whifed "Aichi 119". Here is the ordnance:



The glider "shell" would allow a standard torpedo to be launched a little farther out, but keep a fairly steady "aim". When it hit the water, the impact would separate the shell, and presumably the torpedo would continue as normal.

As far as "modern" weapons go maybe a drogue 'chute with a timer on it would slow down a jet-launched torpedo enough to allow it to enter water at "TBD Devastator" speeds. A drogue 'chute would act as a "fletch" and keep the torpedo at roughly the same angle until disengaging.
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Offline Sauragnmon

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2009, 10:02:28 am »
Yeah, I was reminded of that at one point, similar thoughts of a Torpedo-bomber UAV came to mind, or other ideas.

The Drogue chute idea works similar to my Snake eye Torpedo-tail principle, slowing the torpedo prior to immersion, at which point the fin case releases and the torpedo continues as normal.
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Offline Jschmus

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2011, 07:41:46 pm »
I think I have discovered in a news item, use of the aforementioned SCALPEL weapon:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44088691/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/#.TkM_ZGHq6h0

The article says the strike was carried out by F-16s, and the officer is quoted as saying it was a "kinetic" strike.
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Offline Diamondback

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2011, 07:47:51 pm »
Slerski, that is cool as s**t.  Back when I posted that, we casually discussed using the training round as a kinetic kill weapon, with no idea they were actually considering such a thing.
Per an old prof of mine who used to command the 318th FIS before he went into academia, the F-106 could lob a concrete blivet suborbital, and "blivet bombs" with PGM kits may have actually been used in Bosnia for "minimal collateral" strikes, like say a tank parked next to a church or school or hospital where a real "boomstuff" bomb would flatten the building too.

Offline Maverick

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2011, 09:26:07 pm »
I'd say there'd almost be a precedent for kinetic energy PGMs given that APDSFS rounds use kinetic kill and one could suggest they are a precision weapon rather than an area weapon.  The extrapolation into a PGM isn't that far or unreasonable.  There would still be shrapnel one would assume from both the weapon and the target but not as extreme as an explosive hit.

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Offline DarrenP

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Re: Air-To-Surface Weapons (Missiles and Guided Bombs) General Discussion
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2011, 11:36:58 pm »
Have read reports of the Israelis in the 80's using Maverick's with inert warheads in the Bekka valley as against soft targets like a radar truck the Kenetic energy was enough to destroy the target.

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Hmmmmm, interesting.

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